Proper business

[markw]

Framing has to be one of the few businesses where anyone who fancies starting their own business can do so with fairly limited start up cost. They can do this with absolutely no experience of framing or business. We are in strange times - many well established businesses in my local area have closed over the last couple of years. The observation from this forum is that new businesses are being established even in this relatively tough time.

I have fairly strong opinion that all businesses should compete on a fairly level playing field - They should be VAT registered, paying business rates and conforming to the same H&S regs - Waste disposal regs etc. If a business opens next door to me I know that his costs are going to be fairly similar to mine - I will compete fairly with him. Someone opening in a shed around the corner wont get the business I get as a high street framer - but they can certainly take some of my trade as they can trade at far less cost than I can.

I am not against people starting a business at home - Its how I started. Playing Devils advocate - what do you think?

[Not your average framer]

Usually most around here go bust within a month or two. What I object to, is when they send their customers to us, so that the can choose what they want and then undercut our prices. After a while I get to know what is going on and quote to make sure that they get more trouble than they expected when trying to do the job.

I have even encountered one home based start-up who told me to my face that he was going to advertise, compete to beat me on price and drive me out of businness. He went bust, but said lots of unhelpful and untrue things while he was talking to possible customers to gain an unfair advantage.

I try not to let these people get to me, but even if they are rubbish as framers, they can harm those who are truly professional and do a good job.

[Tim]

I spent seven years framing for myself before I even considered starting out commercially. All my framing techniques were learnt using mitre saws, small trimming guillotines, sanders, and very basic (long ruler and a handheld blade) mountcutting tools. This taught me a lot about how difficult it is to create something that looks 'professional'. I suppose it was an apprenticeship of sorts.

Once I'd decided to make a going concern of things, I spent a long time researching the next level of equipment, and got myself an Ultimat Gold, a Morso, and a Casesse underpinner. None of those improved the quality of my work, but boy, did they improve my productivity.

As to overheads and costs, I operate a gallery/studio (at present) from a converted garage, with a workshop in a garden shed. I don't have the overheads of a high street framer, but then I don't have the footfall to generate new customers either, so I have to be a touch more creative (see other post about using other businesses as 'galleries'). Most, if not all, of my business to date has been by word of mouth, and I'm just waiting for the first call from someone who's seen the newly signwritten van travelling about. In June the website will go live, as long as I can find the time to send the images to the designers

I too agree with the 'level playing field' approach. I've registered the garage for business rates, made enquiries about commercial waste disposal, but as yet haven't registered THIS business for VAT. (We have another VAT registered business operating from the same location though, so certain costs can be recovered that way.)

I have been known to quote for work that would have been more trouble than it was worth had I won it, just to keep turning stock over, but thankfully most of my customers are repeats, and provide me with enough work to keep the wolf from the door. Sure, I could cope with more, but I wouldn't want to compromise quality for quantity.

I have a business plan and target for each of the next three years, and so far we're on track. At the end of three years I expect to be able to move into either an upmarket high street gallery, or if the business has morphed into that of a 'contract' framer, then an industrial unit somewhere. I have one of each of those as my most local competition, and as far as I can see there's still enough work for all of us if we show some originality in our approaches to gaining new customers.

Hope that gives some idea of where I'm at right now. One thing's for sure - another framer starting up in the next house/street/village/town isn't going to put me out of business in a hurry - I have too much flexibility built into my business plans.

Tim

[Gesso&Bole]

I think that on balance the (non) level playing field is sloping in favour of the more established (VAT/Rates/Waste disposal paying) larger business. Although this industry has a relatively low entry point, it does take quite a lot of time and effort (and dare I say investment) to establish credibility with customers.

Most of us will remember when we first started it was all certificates and photos - not so easy to get the upmarket work when you are new and un-tested.

In the recession, there is still money around, but people are likely to be even more careful about how they spend it, so less likely to take a risk employing a newly established 'garage' framer with no track-record vs using the (more expensive) long established credible framer.

I have always employed a policy of welcoming small start up framers to come into my shop - sell them a bit of moulding here and there, cut the odd mount for them, and shoot the breeze, and let them pick my brain. You may be surprised to know that this usually results in them bringing me more business in the long run - either when they have given up and gone back to their full time job, or to repair cock-ups, or to deal with something that is too big or too valuable for them to handle. And if they become brilliant top rate competitors in the future? Well at least they will be friendly!

[birdman]

We started as garage framers albeit complete with all the professional equipment that we could afford. We had no direct local competition and built up a following of loyal customers who were impressed with what we did. We started with business training, plenty of picture framing training and took the GCF exam. In our case we had looked at high street premises but they just weren't available in the location we wanted. Incidentally, as we were looking for shop premises we started off pricing at the level found in a "proper" framers because we didn't want to have to hike our prices when we moved.

Patience worked and we moved into a shop about 16 months ago and despite starting again in turbulent times we are keeping our heads above water whilst other local businesses close down.

I agree that it would be nice to have that level playing field, but in any business there is always someone who can undercut you, so you just have to get on and convince your customers why they should be paying your premium. It's normally fairly obvious after they get the first crap frame or their photo or painting is bodged or ruined.

Some of our wider competition also pay rates, are vat registered and may even pay for waste disposal but that doesn't mean they are better for it. We don't have sufficient turnover to be vat regd and occasionally that works in our favour and in other cases it's a disadvantage.

In these tough times we should welcome those who have taken the plunge. It is very scary and not as comfortable as a paid job. If they produce the goods they'll survive, which they won't do unless they have priced their product correctly and produce a satisfactory result. We have just reframed some work produced by a large "professional" competitor and have won that customer for the future.

We should encourage other framers and ourselves to raise our standards, which is surely why we all contribute to this forum.

[markw]

I don't agree - the fact that anyone can establish themselves as a picture framer regardless of their ability to actually frame a picture undermines the whole trade. I am not interested in making friends with the local garage framer and am certainly not going to make life easy for them.

Commenting that your not worried about competition from businesses that don't have the same standards or the same costs is daft - they can spoil your business by top - or should it be bottom slicing some your customer base. If you are content with that threat to the growth of your business I would suggest your not ambitious enough.

As much as I respect my customers, most of them wouldn't appreciate a good framing job if you hit them with it, give them cheap and they will go for it. The challenge to our industry is to reach a position where you don't get dumb f***** like Chris Evans (12 million for a car) moaning that a picture frame cost three times as much as the picture on prime time radio. Appreciating the skill in picture framing will never be achieved when framing is a back street skill that can be mastered by any Tom, Dick or Harry in an afternoon of contemplating their future self employed status.

Please be aware that I am well aware that many framers choose not to have high street businesses and run incredibly good businesses from home (or unit) - ( they are the worst - they just compete and are as good - if not better than me).

[Bagpuss]

Don't tell anyone but I'm a newly established "garage framer" although I like to call it a Workshop ...
I setup in business back in June last year but I started framing back in 1990, it's hard work but I'm in for the long haul It's funny but I speak to quite a few established framers at Guild meetings and quite a few of them wish they were working from home, given fluctuating rates etc.

There maybe an assumption that "garage framer" means shoddy, amatuer work but I cannot tell you the number of "crimes against framing" I have seen from high street framers, liberal use of brown sticky tape to fix a limited edition print in place, unbelievable ... I pride myself on quality and attention to detail, hopefully my customers appreciate that, despite the lack of a high street facade .

Adam

[Roboframer]

I don't know of any garage framers anywhere near me - good or bad. A Google search brings up one or two weirdos 4 or 5 miles away - possibly there's more but they just haven't got an internet presence, website, blog, Google maps, yell.com etc - or a business line as yellow pages also does not turn any up.

I started as a garage framer and I was crap - really crap, for a short while. But my nearest competition was another garage framer (he didn't even have his own garage - had to rent one) who did framing for a lot of art shops, photographers and a few other shops, plus local customers, and a 'gallery' that subbed framing out to a place in Surrey.

If a shop like mine was establsihed where ours is now I might not have gone for it and maybe our place has put off potential garage framers.

Maybe a proliferation of garage framers in the vicinity of an established frame shop means that shop is not doing something right - or maybe it could be a case of the shop is doing it so right that it encourages/inspires them?

It could be worse, we could have the 'Big Box' problem that they have in the USA.

[stcstc]

i started working in my spare room and the front room of my house

I now have a proper commercial space

I have no problem with other people setting up framing, But around me there at least 2 framing suppliers who have actually started doing framing. this i do object to.

these suppliers gain discounts from manufacturers, and then compete with me and others being able to use those discounts to their advantage.

if people have an issue with sharing information and helping, why do they use this forum?, isnt this forum about sharing information and helping each other out?


i have carved a niche market for myself, by being proactive not only with selling my self but also coming up with ideas and then marketing them to particular types of client.

I dont really offer a traditional framing service, dont really do art framing. but have gained a reputation and a decent customer base in a niche market.

[sim.on]

I'm a 'garage framer' working from home and will never ever rent a commercial property.

[anji]

I wonder how many on the forum started out working from home? Markw admits that he did and then went on to a commercial property. Is that the normal route into the business? Or do people most people bite the bullet jump straight in?

[WelshFramer]

Well, my workshop is the double garage attached to our house.

It wasn't cheap to set up - cost me over £20,000 for the equipment to say nothing of the cost of three weeks of residential courses to learn the basics followed by endless hours using this forum (and other sources) to learn a lot more. As to whether or not I'm any good or not, it's difficult for me to judge but I do know that I'm better than some framers who have expensive high street shop and I also know that some of my customers will travel the best part of an hour to bring work to me.

So my feeling is that it's nothing to do with where you work, it's how you work and how you treat the business that matters. For me, framing is a serious business and I try to give customers good value for money. As to whether I undercut the competition or not I don't know. I don't pay business rates and I don't create any trade refuse (glass is recycled via a glass artist, moulding is used in the woodburner and mountboard makes great bonfires). If I had those expenses then I'd just factor them in but I don't think they'd make a great difference. What would make a difference is paying rates on a High Street location - but then I'd be in a different business and I'd be making extra money selling ready-made frames, mirrors, prints, etc.

PS. If we finally manage to sell this house for a reasonable amount of money I'll be renting a commercial workshop in SE England and paying business rates. If we don't get a reasonable price for the house I'll be selling all the framing equipment to help pay off the mortgage.

[mikeysaling]

PS. If we finally manage to sell this house for a reasonable amount of money I'll be renting a commercial workshop in SE England and paying business rates. If we don't get a reasonable price for the house I'll be selling all the framing equipment to help pay off the mortgage.

Lets hope you get a good price - pity to pack it in after the effort you have obviously put in - and you must be doing it right if folk are travelling so far to get work done

good luck from me

[Nigel Nobody]

I really don't mind if people want to start framing in their garage.

The thing I find most disturbing is that some people decide to be a framer, buy $3.50 worth of equipment, $5.25 worth of supplies & put a sign up that says "Picture Framing". They don't buy $100 worth of books, they don't go to a framing school, they don't go to any classes and they think framing is just whacking four sticks of wood together, bunging in a piece of glass and a bit of cardboard and hey presto, job done, gimme the money, I'm a framer!

The general public passing by sees the sign and make the false assumption that the proprietor is an 'expert'. What else would they think.....after all the sign says "Picture Framer" it doesn't say "Beginner". They take in their precious stuff to be framed and the framer invents his own mounting methods and many times uses products that are not really suitable, and although the finished job may look presentable, inside is a time bomb.

This scenario occurs down here on a regular basis. It devalues our industry and helps to keep the public perception of our industry at a much lower level than it deserves!

As people have said many times, "framing ain't rocket science", but there are things to learn and all people who want to become a framer should learn from as many reputable sources as possible as soon as possible for their own good, their customers good and the good of this industry!

Does that make sense to anyone?
I hope it does and I would like to encourage all people in this industry to take every opportunity and even make opportunities to learn from the best sources they can!

[markw]

The thing I find most disturbing is that some people decide to be a framer, buy $3.50 worth of equipment, $5.25 worth of supplies & put a sign up that says "Picture Framing". They don't buy $100 worth of books, they don't go to a framing school, they don't go to any classes and they think framing is just whacking four sticks of wood together, bunging in a piece of glass and a bit of cardboard and hey presto, job done, gimme the money, I'm a framer!

Said far more eloquently than mine.

In a perfect world there would be some minimum requirement before you opened a framing business to the public.

Why don't we have apprenticeship schemes - College courses etc.

[stcstc]

there are course etc


BUT


in the same way someone could setup doing other tasks, for example could be a kitchen fitter. without any training.

could be a website developer without training

video editor etc etc etc

i just think its the same in a lot of businesses, there will be people who go hey i can do that


and you know what some of them will be good and some wont.

the only types of business where a level of trade skill is essential are things where there are either laws or regulation.

[WelshFramer]

Lets hope you get a good price - pity to pack it in after the effort you have obviously put in - and you must be doing it right if folk are travelling so far to get work done

good luck from me

Thanks. I was thinking of packing it in but I recently had some customers giving me feedback that inspired me to continue.

One customer has a brother-in-law who is the curator of a major public gallery in London. He went round to see their new house a few weeks ago and commented on one of the frames on their wall. Didn't mention the picture (an old map) but went on about how good the frame was. Do wish I'd kept a photo of that one - or given the customer some business cards.

My main problem is that I don't want a regular 9 to 5 job. I want to turn up to work when I feel like it and work as late as I want (or until dinner is on the table). The other problem is that I also design and typeset book (which pays better than framing) and I have 5 books on the go at the moment. It's difficult balancing that against running a serious business.

Oh well, I'm supposed to be going on holiday today so I'm trying to find a briefcase large enough to take all my work with me. At least I'm not trying to take the Morso - just the laptop and a pile of book typescripts.

[kev@frames]

I think everyone in business, regardless of their turnover, should pay VAT, as they do in many european countries. (in some countries this operates with a threshold set very low so as to exclude those people with payiong-hobbies).
then we would not see so much of the "VAT trap" where people find it too hard to burst through the grey area between 70k and 150/200k where you become substantiallky better off paying VAT.
The present system does not encourage small businesses to expand.

im surprised that some people can make any sort of decent living at all with a turnover under the VAT threshold (70k or whatever it is now). Particularly with retail premises. But i suppose that depends what you call a decent living.
I would hesitate to call anything under 70k a "business", as thats usually a one-man self employed framer, often with another income/job/pension to prop up their framing interest.

It does not matter whether you are home based or have separate premises, if you are in business you are in business. So long as you are playing by the rules then it's a level playing field.

It is, however, too convenient and easy to "look down" on the home based framer, often making the assumptions (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) that they are on the fiddle, avoiding VAT, rates, tax, insurance, waste charges, etc and being subsidised by "proper" businesses with whom they are in "competition".

But if you stand back and look at it, there is nothing wrong with someone happening to live where they work, or work where they live. In some countries it is more the rule than the exception for a whole range of trades and businesses.

personally, as far as fellings go, I I happen to agree 1005 with MarkW

[mikeysaling]

i suppose you don't have to go back too far to find ALL trades worked from home or lived at work the forge the bakery the butcher - pubs still do mostly and many are micro brewers. the only one i can think of traditionally that worked in a different place was the vicar - but then the clergy were always independently wealthy - it was the coming of markets and then high streets that started the cost cycle to spiral (rates etc)

what do you all think of this little poem written in 1961 - do you all know a bob bankit in your town!! i do!!

EXPANSION

by Andrew Hodgson.

Bob Bankit was a worthy of a Norfolk market-town
And kept the general outfitter's beside the Rose and Crown.
He owned a row of houses and a plot or two of land,
And every venture seemed to thrive to which he set his hand.
He made a lot of money and was happy as could be
When he got himself elected to the local U.D.C.
He was very much admired as a forceful sort of chap,
The kind that you could trust to put the town upon the map.

Development was his idea: a town made larger still
By taking in some thousands of a city’s ‘overspill’.
‘It’s this way,’ he expounded to his cronies in the know,
‘If we get twice the people we shall rake in twice the dough.’
With Bankit on the council the scheme was soon pushed through –
And Robert sold his housing plots for quite a pound or two.
The houses rose, the people came, and so did extra trade;
And soon it seemed that Bob and Co. were well and truly made.

But now the famous shops and stores with branches everywhere
Decided it was worth their while to open branches there.
The ‘foreigners’ were thrilled to find the shops they used to know;
The locals were attracted by the chrome-and-glamour show.
R. Bankit’s old-established place looked out-of-date and dim-
If you wanted something stylish it was no good going to him!
His custom dropped, his takings shrank, his stock stayed on the shelf;
And soon the forceful chap looked dim and out-of-date himself.
The man who’d dreamed of millions from developing the town
Was forced to put up notices: Reductions – closing down.

His fine commodious premises were bought by messrs. Blank;
And Bob received a curtly worded letter from his bank.
He sold his ‘country residence’. He sold his jaguar car;
They missed his pompous presence in the Rose’s private bar.
Some say he went to London to his married sisters place,
Some say he jumped off Clacton pier and sank without a trace;
But one thing’s sure , the end of all his high-flown schemes was grim:
HE MADE HIS NATIVE TOWN SO BIG THERE WASN’T ROOM FOR HIM.

[Nigel Nobody]

the only types of business where a level of trade skill is essential are things where there are either laws or regulation.

I disagree with you 120% plus some more!