Indian painting on paper / cloth - a big one ...

[Bagpuss]

Hi,
I've put this job off for a couple of weeks, not too sure how to approach it just yet. Would appreciate some suggestions

The photo below shows a rolled up painting on heavy paper, stuck to a cotton backing, brought back by the customer from India.
Fully un-rolled it's about 2.2m long and about 50cm tall, it will hang landscape.

Thoughts so far;
- order Acrylic cut to size from G&M, have spoken to them today, 3mm deep with UV protection.
- customer wants a black moulding so I will get something suitably robust with a decent rebate.
- unsure whether I can have Acrylic in direct contact with Artwork, I understand that there's less of an issue with condensation when using Acrylic. I want to avoid any "flapping about" of the Acrylic so would prefer if Acrylic was pressing down against artwork.
- not too sure how best to attach artwork to backing, given the size of it.
- was thinking of using 5mm MDF backing, screwed into back of the frame, to ensure that it keeps it's rigidity.

Any comments appreciated,

Adam/Bagpuss

indian_painting.jpg (53.71 KiB) Viewed 7141 times

[iantheframer]

I would not try to keep it flat by pressing it against the Perspex. There are conservation issues here with regard to this. Also the thing looks quite bulky and it will not flatten evenly. Also a concern would be that at that size anything pressing against 3mm acrylic might cause it to bow outwards which would be very noticeable.

Are they rings at the top?

I would use those to hang it and then secure it, possibly to a linen covered board, but that is an aesthetic choice, by sewing Then frame it spaced away from the glazing.

[Bagpuss]

Are they rings at the top?

I would use those to hang it and then secure it, possibly to a linen covered board, but that is an aesthetic choice, by sewing Then frame it spaced away from the glazing.

Hi Ian,
no they're not rings, just glass paper weights, the art will be hanging width wise not length wise, I hadn't thought about sewing it to a backboard, that's possible I suppose.
thnx,
Adam/Bagpuss

[prospero]

Just a few thoughts........

Something that size I would think about mounting it to a stretcher frame, like a canvas painting. I would be hard to get a stable board that size and there is the weight to consider. Of course it depends on the condition of the fabric it is fixed to and if there is sufficient border to allow this. You could stretch a piece of contrasting fabric, maybe 2" bigger all round and sew it to that. (Tricky). The only thing is that you would probably need to have custom size stretchers made and watch the depth. 25mm deep bars would be OK if you can source custom made ones in that size. The deeper ones are about 50mm, so by the time you have added spacers/glazing you are going to need a 3" deep rebate. Although you could let the stretcher frame stick out at the back like an oil painting and tack foamcore to the back of the stretchers for protection.

Hope you have quoted a hefty price.

[Bagpuss]

Hope you have quoted a hefty price.

Thanks for your thoughts prospero, I really wanted to find out how I was going to do it before quoting the customer, they were quite relaxed for me to hang onto it and seek advice. My only thoughts about using the stretcher bars is that the painting is actually on heavyweight paper that has been stuck to a backing cloth, I couldn't stretch it as the paper would no doubt rip, even by sewing donor strips round the edges.

Sewing onto a backing board of some description might be an idea, but at over 2.2m long that could be an issue, I think G&M do 10mm Foamcore that size... it's the biggest I've ever attempted so I'm scratching about in the dark a bit .
thanks,
Adam/Bagpuss

[prospero]

I use the word 'stretcher' advisedly. You only need to pull it tight enough so it doesn't flap about or sag. Sewing extra strips to staple to is a sound idea. The advantage of this is that it would be strong and relatively light compared with a sheet of board. And it would stay perfectly flat. If it sags later, you can give the wedges a slight tap in the right direction. You would have to engineer it somehow to give a bit of elbow room in the frame to allow for possible expansion later. As a spacer you could use a 20mm flat slip. This would allow you to leave about 10mm gap all round between the frame and stretcher. Use foamcore spacers to hold it in place. Then if you do have to tighten it later you have a bit of room to play with.

[Nigel Nobody]

The method described below is good for floating art above or onto a background, and would be appropriate for this piece of art. It's a little time consuming but gives an excellent result that is preservation quality in all aspects when appropriate materials are used as it is totally reversible.

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1. Make the support. It should be about a quarter of an inch smaller than the art. For small jobs, 4 ply is sufficient. For regular larger sizes, 8 ply is excellent. The large piece of art in question is bigger than a sheet of 8 ply, so several pieces of 4ply could be bonded to one large piece of 5mm foamboard. Another layer of 4 ply added to the back of the foamboard would make the entire support much more rigid, which would be desirable on a piece this size. Bevels should be cut on the pieces before assembling the support.

2. Place the art upside down and the support in place on the back of the art. Mark around the edge of the support on the back of the art lightly with a soft pencil. Remove support.

3. Water cut a large batch of hinges, about 1 inch wide and 1.5 to 2 inches long. Make a fold in hinges about 3/8ths to 1/2 inch from the end of a hinge and apply starch paste to that section. Apply hinge to the art with the fold exactly in line with the pencil mark and the excess hinge outside the pencil line. Apply hinges every three inches approx. all the way around the art.

4. When the hinges are all dry, place the support on the back of the art, inside the perimeter of hinges. Apply paste to the inside of the flap of hinge that protrudes, press down on the support so that the art is firmly up against it at the hinge point, then pull the hinge gently and press down to paste the hinge on the bevel and the back of the support. Repeat on remainder of hinges.

Tip: Apply paste to 10 or more hinges at a time and wait until the gloss has gone from the paste before applying the hinge.
Tip: Plastic bags with sand in them make great weights to hold the hinges in place while the paste dries. A piece of non woven synthetic fabric goes on the wet hinge (so the blotting paper doesn't stick), then a piece of blotting paper, then the weight.
Tip: More layers of foamboard can be added to the back of the support to raise the art above the background in the frame.

[Roboframer]

..............painting on heavy paper, stuck to a cotton backing, brought back by the customer from India.

Two things shout at me ...

1. The actual artwork (the painting on heavy paper) is already mounted (stuck to a cotton backing) so that has probably already written off the best preservation methods of mounting.

1 (a) Therefore you're dealing with a support and not the actual artwork; you can't treat it as you would if it was just the paper and you can't treat it as you would if it was someting painted or stitched on to fabric. If it was painted on fabric you'd have the option of stretching, with or without sewing extensions on; if it was stitched on fabric you'd have the same option and also the option of support sewing. But you shouldn't poke a needle through artwork on paper, stuck to fabric or not/cheap or not.

2. It probably did not cost much and the paint and paper used is as low quality as you can get. It's a touristy thing and even if Ikea did a ready-made that size, it would cost more than the artwork. A proper conservation job cannot really be offered unless the fabric and the adhesive used to fix to the fabric were removed by a conservator.

I would not have a problem* with pasting the thing to a board, the paste and the board I'd use would be of a higher quality than whatever glue and fabric has already been used.

*I wouldn't like to do that though, nothing to do with standards, just the size. I'd be looking at methods that give me more than one shot and Ormond's method does that as well as keeping the conscience clear.

[prospero]

Just a thought re Robo's post.

On large scale works on paper, it is common practice to mount the paper onto fabric prior to painting. If this was the case here, the fabric mounting would be part of the preparation of the ground and on no account should the fabric be detached.

[Bagpuss]

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts on this project, I hadn't thought about 'floating' the artwork, that might actually look pretty good. Bearing in mind the heavy paper artwork is backed with cloth, will starch paste and hinges adhere to that OK ? ( I've only ever stuck it to paper ).
thanks,
Adam/Bagpuss

[Nigel Nobody]

Starch paste will stick to cloth unless the cloth is dirty or greasy.
Try testing a piece of Japanese paper, pasted onto the edge of the fabric, and leave it alone for 4 hrs or preferably overnight before trying to remove it to test the strength.

It should be tested initially for shear strength not peel. Once it tests OK for shear, then test it for peel. Peel is not as important because the permanent tension on the hinge will be along the length of the hinge!

[Nigel Nobody]

A few photos of a float I did recently on a piece of art on heavy paper where the edges of the paper were curled up slightly. Just using "S" hinges would not have flattened the paper like this method.

Each hinge is about 1 inch wide. The paper is a full size watercolour sheet with the art painted right to the edge. Several layers of foamboard were placed under the 8 ply to raise the art above the backing.

Float01.JPG (84.87 KiB) Viewed 6952 times

Float02.JPG (87.43 KiB) Viewed 6952 times

Float03.JPG (40.68 KiB) Viewed 6952 times

[Bagpuss]

Thank you for posting the photos Ormond, much appreciated. It's a lot clearer when you see a photo isn't it,
can you tell me what your hinges are made of ?
thanks,
Adam/Bagpuss

[Nigel Nobody]

Adam,
The hinges are watercut Japanese paper pasted with cooked wheat starch paste. This is reversible and is an archival technique and is the best hinging method.

Somewhere on the forum there is a list of places you can buy this stuff in UK. John/Roboframer knows where to get it from.