Anything off for cash?

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 7:09 pm

I don't suppose that I am unusual among picture framers when I can say that the great majority of my customers are a pleasure to deal with. They are friendly, polite and genuinely appreciative of what is done for them. And they return again and again. I cannot ask for more than that.

But we have all met the other sort haven't we? They arrive bearing a tatty selection of old wrapping paper or worse containing an assortment of dirty and semi-derelict old frames which have been neglected for years, glass which is filthy and probably broken, old mounts and backing board complete with half a century or more of accumulated acid, dried up mould growth and various other filth - and they drop the lot on my clean table on which other customers are expected to place pristine original artwork and expensive prints while mounts etc. are chosen.

Then they enquire whether I am prepared to put their ancient and extremely grubby old family group photos or whatever into said frames - the obvious implication being that they expect to save vast amounts of money because I am not being asked to make new frames. Well of course I will do it if the frames are reusable. It is a legitimate request and it is all business. However, by the time I have explained to them that the savings might not amount to all that much, if anything (and how long it will take to finish dismantling and cleaning the frames, removing old nails, screws and staples together with remnants of old tape and glue -not counting any actual repairs which might be needed - then measured, cut out new mounts, backing board and glass and assembled the whole lot - and disposed of the waste including broken glass) some time has passed already and they are still wanting their old frames reused and have yet to choose replacement mounts. So now they want mounts which are not going to look incongruous in a final assembly comprising old dark oak frames (or equally old but damaged gold ones) and photographs, or seriously faded old watercolours painted on something that now looks like brown wallpaper. Of course they don't know what mounts they want, which is fair enough, and proceed to pick bright new colours that are going to scream at them. More time is passing while they ignore my gentle steering towards the very much less assertive colours that will tie their picrtures and frames together so that they look as if they belong. Yes, the customer is always right (like hell they are) but it is my reputation that will hang on their wall for all to see, and when their visitors show a distinct tendency to wince on seeing the disasters that such customers are willing to put on their walls, do you imagine that the customer will admit that it wasn't the framer's fault, but their's?

Eventually, mounts are chosen, a price is reluctantly agreed, the customer departs. She has haggled about the price of course. Has it not occurred to her that she took up almost an hour of my time and all she really had to do was choose two mounts? Who does she expect to pay for that hour. I could easily have made a £60 frame in that time yet her whole bill will be rather less than that! The frames are made and the customer returns to collect (and they usually have an equally miserable-looking companion - perhaps its infectious) and both concede, though in a muted way 'cos it doesn't pay to be enthusiastic, that a fine job has been done.

Now with most customers the final stage, handing over the money, is done in good grace and a spirit of mutual appreciation. Not with this type of customer it isn't. They are not even giving you a smile. They ferret about in a purse or wallet as if totally unfamiliar with its contents. That is feasible I suppose. At least the moths get ample time to escape. Then they slowly lay out most, but not all, of the money on the table. They seem to be struggling to find the right money, the last few poounds, so I enquire politely whether they will need change. They may or may not answer but what they will say next is "Anything off for cash?"

Now I getting fed up though trying not to show it. To start with, they agreed the price on their first visit. Secondly, I think it an insult to any craftsperson to ask for a discount. It is all very well for normal retail outlets who simply buy, display and sell goods. Most of them have a large enough mark-up that they can justify a discount from time to time. Isn't that how they afford to have "sales"? But for small craft businesses it is a totally different matter. If our products are carefully priced there is only one place in our costings where we can reduce the costs that we pass on to customers - and that is our wages. And if Mrs Mean-Miserable-and-Proud-of-it thinks that I am cutting my wages for her then she has another think coming.

She probably won't be back. Every cloud has a silver lining.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 7:46 pm

A totally justified hissy fit John. You are not alone by any means; if it is any consolation it has happened to us all at some time or other. It's not common, but if the day is going crap then one of these folk are in there somewhere. You forgot one thing; to take a look for the S-class merc parked outside. Amazing how often that happens!

What's the discount for cash? Must be working on the premise that it's going to bi-pass the till, and they usually think they're doing you a favour by asking.

Another day tomorrow and they are all gems.

Merlin · Post by **Merlin** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 8:04 pm

The reply to Discount for cash is.
"I didnt charge you for the consultation only the labour and materials"

JFeig · Post by **JFeig** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 8:24 pm

It is heart warming to see that you have the same "charming" clients as we have on this side of the pond.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 9:58 pm

The bank even charge us for paying in cash - one per cent!

So, of course I'll offer the difference between that and a credit card transaction to anyone with the neck to ask for one. NOT!!

And I think it is a neck, having said that, there is plenty of advice about for them on how to negotiate a discount and why they should.

They need to get me really excited before I'll offer a discount, be that on art off our walls or on framing.

I like the cocky ones best..... "I see you've had that picture quite a while - what's your best price?"

"It's the sixth copy we've had and its now sold out - you're looking at the best price" (I'm usually lying!)

One guy had me get a picture out of the window, wrap it, produced his card and said "Now I NEVER pay full price for anything - so let's do the haggling bit"

I unwrapped it, saying that he had until I got to the window before I'd add a surcharge for re-hanging it. He walked out and I didn't care a toss.

ANOTHER .... "I got into framing once"

"Oh yeah?"

"Yeah - had a morso - pneumatic underpinner, the lot"

"Wow ........ blah blah"

"So - I reckon the materials on that frame (points to a framed piece on the wall) cost £X and I know you mark up prints 100%" So how's about I make you an offer of £X" (Gives a figure about 45% less than the ticket"

I said "Wait there a sec" and went back to work out back!

Mrs Robo said he hung about for about 10 mins before he got the message.

One guy came in with a D&J Simons catalogue and price list, demanding I order a load of mouldings I didn't stock and just charge him trade, carriage and 'something for my time'

I can be a sucker for a sob story though!

Not your average framer · Tue 14 Nov, 2006 10:33 pm

When those who think that offering cash with the suggestion that I would consider bypassing the till come into my framing shop and make such a suggestion, I tell them straight - I would not consider sinking to their level. The fact that they would suggest it speaks volumes and it's all about them and tells my that I don't want anything to do with them or their money.

Frankly, I spent two years unemployed receiving the Job Seekers Allowance, it was paid for by your taxes and mine. I would have starved without it. Am I happy to pay my taxes, having been on the other end too? Yes, most definately and with the utmost pleasure, it's my moral duty to my fellow man. People who suggest otherwise can take their business elsewhere and good ridance to them.

Thankfully, people with this attitude seem to be a very small minority.

markw · Post by **markw** » Tue 14 Nov, 2006 11:28 pm

had one in today - really crappy old frame that needed tidying up - That will take me three hours madame - your looking at £200 + VAT. said politley - some practicle advice on what they could do themselves to tidy up said crappy frame and they went away happy. I have learnt not too judge my customers too harshly ( i can hear my wife laughing knowing that i can be awful if they catch me in the wrong mood).

Underpinner · Post by **Underpinner** » Wed 15 Nov, 2006 8:57 pm

Thanks to all of you for your responses. I feel a lot better now!

By the way, Foxyframer, I did reflect upon the very new-looking eurobox (no idea what it was) that said customer was driving - it only reminded me of another not particularly recent bee in my bonnet. Something to do with the needless waste of the planet's resources during my lifetime on the manufacture and largely fashion-based obsolescence of millions of unnecessary motorcars. Had it been a S-class Merc it might have reminded me of this, especially as I am still totally delighted with my pristine 20 year-old BMW.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Sun 19 Nov, 2006 7:09 pm

If I pay cash, can you forget the v.a.t (sales tax). Happens every now and then. No way Jose.

Reminds me of a local case. Lunchtime, four suited men enter a restuarant, order, enjoy their meal and leave; only for two of them to return later in the afternoon to declare they are from Revenue & Customs and wish to see the relevent receipts of the lunch transaction. Whoops! bill copy is in the tandoor and someone's in the brown stuff. This is a true case; came to court recently with dire consequences.
It always pays to play the game straight. You never know who your next customer will be.

This tactic by R&C is used quite a lot, especially where cash is more likely to be the usual form of payment.

Be aware everyone.

beth · Post by **beth** » Mon 20 Nov, 2006 1:57 pm

What I hate, is the fact they want a discount for cash, it’s always customers I have never seen before, if I give a discount it is for quantity or because they are a regular customers but not to some stranger who does not want to pay vat. Most my regular customer never question the price.

But recently I have a new type of customer, a nice old gentleman; he had some little frames done the price worked out £69 he said he preferred round numbers and to call it £70 and paid by cash as he knows we get charged for cheques and credit cards.

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Mon 20 Nov, 2006 4:54 pm

Your nice old gentleman came from a more thoughtful and kinder age Beth. They are unfortunately a rare and diminishing breed. Once I had one come in years ago who insisted he pay for the stamp on the postal reminder, along with abject apologies. Kind of makes your day. Sometimes you can even get a tip, as token of appreciation, or just keep the change.

Not your average framer · Mon 20 Nov, 2006 10:04 pm

You don't get anything off for cash at the bank. Mine, (LLoyds TSB), charges 70 pence per paying in slip, plus 28 pence for each cheque, pence a cash handling charge of 0.55% of the amount of cash paid in. Sounds a bit like "heads they win, tails you lose".

I imagine this is much the same with other banks, but since I pay my bills by cheque, it is difficult to see much advantage in being paid in cash, except that it clears into your account quicker than cheques do.

So how's this sound - "Yes, you can have an discount for cash, but only if you pay cash with order". Somehow, I don't think they would like that one!
Cheers,
Mark

foxyframer · Post by **foxyframer** » Fri 01 Dec, 2006 7:27 pm

'Would you like me to pay now? Then I'll just have to pick it up.'

Take the money.

Doesn't matter whether it's a regular or a familliar face; if they want to settle up front, let them. Better money in the till, than they come in weeks after the collection date, or not at all! Some other unforseen expense gets in the way and you end up behind the clock.

Roboframer · Post by **Roboframer** » Fri 01 Dec, 2006 8:45 pm

Uh-oh!

Now this is just me - I'm not saying it is good advice or business practice.

I hate taking deposits or full payment up front!

It takes all the incentive out of it somehow - those that insist on up-front payment (usually as someone else will be collecting) get left 'til the last possible minute!

I like to hand things over and then get paid in full.

I've rarely been stiffed - about 5 times in 13 years, all basic stuff too. I must live in a nice area - I know I'd not be so lucky in some other areas.

gesso · Post by **gesso** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:39 pm

If I'm in a good mood 50% chance

If my wife was in a good mood last night -
(probably explaining the above) 50% chance of a disc

If you bring me a piece of cake and or biscuit

40% chance of a disc

Just add it on next time

gesso · Post by **gesso** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 12:47 pm

foxyframer wrote:If I pay cash, can you forget the v.a.t (sales tax). Happens every now and then. No way Jose.

Reminds me of a local case. Lunchtime, four suited men enter a restuarant, order, enjoy their meal and leave; only for two of them to return later in the afternoon to declare they are from Revenue & Customs and wish to see the relevent receipts of the lunch transaction. Whoops! bill copy is in the tandoor and someone's in the brown stuff. This is a true case; came to court recently with dire consequences.
It always pays to play the game straight. You never know who your next customer will be.

This tactic by R&C is used quite a lot, especially where cash is more likely to be the usual form of payment.

Be aware everyone.

When I was still based in London I had a Cabinet Minister come in with some work that needed doing. After we had processed the order , just before he left he asked 'If I pay cash can we forget about the vat'?
Gobsmacked I replied 'I would think about it.'
The next day he telephoned me to say he would be paying with a cheque so would need an invoice after all.

That cctv equipment never did get used again.

markw · Post by **markw** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 2:35 pm

Had a customer in the other day asked would I part exchange the very nasty frames she had her work in for new ones - I think it was obvious by the way I fell on the floor laughing what the answer was.

Post by **prospero** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 2:47 pm

If anyone asks me what I'll take off for cash, I reply: ""Everything but my earings".

I have just about got the measure on hagglers. I quote them over the odds and then knock a bit off for cash. (Nudge, nudge, etc). In the end I get the price I want and they go away with the impression they have done me up like a kipper.

I like to reuse old frames. Most gilded ones are beyond repair, especially if they have been stood on a damp floor and all the ornaments have disinterrgrated. The oak ones usually come up well with a bit of wax and wire-wool. Any knocks tend to add to the look rather than just look tatty.
But to me, this work comes under the heading of restoration, which will probably cost more than a new frame. Even if the frame is relatively new, you can bet you will find a wobbly corner when you strip it down.

Post by **prospero** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 2:56 pm

Roboframer wrote: I hate taking deposits or full payment up front!

Couldn't agree more Robo. I like to work hungry. Pity the bank manager don't

kev@frames · Post by **kev@frames** » Thu 24 Jan, 2008 5:43 pm

about half of ours pay up front.

makes no difference to me or anyone in the workshop, we dont see whether they have paid or not. And of course All my website customers pay up front, its great.

So the "incentive" factor doesn't exist here. Jobs just get done in the order they come in, unless the customer needs it squeezing in sooner.

However it did used to work here exactly like Roboframer says in the past,

People who pay up front round these parts generally pick up on the dot, too.

back to the original post-
anything off for cash? this is often accompamied by "i dont want to pay the VAT".

I tell em, "tell you what then, you give it to me, and I'll pay it to the chancellor for you at the end of the quarter, thats how it works".