how much quicker is a saw than a morso

[stcstc]

Hey everyone

when chopping multiples of frames, not like 5 or 10, say doing 100 or more in a day, how much quicker would using a saw be

I know a saw would be better from my health point of view,i dont want to be having a hip replaced in a few years, so i know thats a big benefit

I seem to be getting asked for more and more large volume jobs, 30+ frames, and just looking for ways to improve efficiency

oh yea it would mean a new premises too

[acleto]

Hi,

I think if we have "only" 25 frames a day you need a double mitre saw, especially if we are talking about large moulding. Even with a single blade saw you are quicker than a Morso (mouldings higher than 6 cm width). The Omga T55 300 single blade has a quick head swing, don't know the performance on the Cassese FC300, that's why I made a post "Cassese FC300 vs. Omga T55 300" in "Help" section.

Alberto

[stcstc]

well its not about size of mouldings for me, most of what i would be doing would be max 50*50

[prospero]

Have you thought about a powered Morso Steve?

[stcstc]

yea, was looking at the eh t, which i am told is a turbo version

[allyblue1]

I have a Inmes IM-30 SINGLE MITRE SAW, great bit of kit, I used to have a morso but could no longer use it due to disability so went for the inmes, alot cheaper than the HYDRAULIC morso

[Abacus]

We have the following:

Morso f
Omga single blade
Brevetti double blade ( manual pull version)

The Morso and omga gather dust most of the time, they can't compete on quality with the brevetti ( but the blades need to be sharp, I do mine probably every month)

The Morso is the quickest for repetitive very thin section frames (13mm) where we can get away with only one bite. Otherwise the brevetti is pretty quick, wastes a bit more moulding and creates a lot of dust (so an extractor is a must). The omga is super accurate, useful for tall mouldings, but quite slow, unless you are prepared to waste quite a bit of moulding and do all the left cuts then swing the head and do all the right cuts.

[A Few More Words]

We run a regular Morso F and an old Nicolletti (now 20 yrs old ) Double mitre saw with 400mm blades (very similar to the Alfa 350 saw) and both are used each day. The saw is used mostly for when we are making batches of frames from the same moulding as well as for some of the larger mouldings, while the morso is generally used for the regular once off custom frame jobs. Running off a batch of 50 /100 frames is no big deal on the saw.
Our saw is the type where both blades move vertically down (pneumatically ) together on one carrier, allowing both blades to cut simultaneously,so the complete cut is done in one motion....this type of saw is faster than a horizontal double saw whereby each blade cuts in sequence. The hourly output of such a vertical saw will be more than a horizontal formation saw........This advantage may be offset somewhat for some framers by its limitation on the moulding size it will handle.....in our case up to about 70mm......
For comparison purposes,looking at Casesse's current offering of mitre saws...they have both a vertical and a horizontal saw

Vertical model 999 moulding size 83 wide x 100mm hign up to 1000 cuts/hour
Horizontal model 969 moulding size 160 wide x 110mm high ????

In our case, we have situations where we need to cut a larger moulding which is too large for the saw, so we end up switching over the foot linkage on the morso to gain the extra blade heigh and then switching back once done......so a horizontal saw such as the Casesse 969 would suit our needs best.

So regarding the saw been faster than the morso, it certainly wins hands down for larger runs of the same moulding in terms of speed and ease of operation. No doubt there is some morso operator out there eating their spinach that might take on a race with a saw, but for regular large batches of frames , I think it could be 2-3 times faster over extended runs.When cutting small mouldings with a newer vertical saw (eg Casesse 999) it is possible to limit the vertical stroke ( the height the blades will rise after a cut) which can significantly speed up the cutting cycle and max the output.

Possibly the single biggest downside of saws can be the dust........in our case we have 2 regular 1 hp "Clarke" bag extractors configured that they start up once the saw motor is started. They extract the dust from the cutting blades but you may not see it when cutting but a film of light dust settles everywhere (as small particles pass right out thru the bag fabric) and for this reason, historically most workshops were set up with a saw room. Using this type of extraction thru an outside wall would certainly minimise the dust issue.
Recent European laws dictate that an air sample from the working enviornment can only contain 1mg /cubic m....and most saws in use today are miles off that.....however Casesse have recently developed a superior triple dust extraction ststem that does exceed this requirement.

Other considerations with using a saw are that most require 3 phase power, increased power demand / cost ( offset by reduced labour) , and noise levels ( newer saws certainly run quiter ) Like a morso, you will also need to carry some spare blades and have them sharpened regularly to get the best results.You will also need a hefty compressor to meet the saw's pneumatic requirements.

If you are seriously considering a saw you should visit a few framers who use one to see whats out there and get a better handle on what will meet your needs. You are welcome to visit us here in Carlow anytime.( to perhaps see what you dont want !!!)

I Hope this is of some help
Tom

[stcstc]

tom, thankyou for your detailed explanation

I may take you up on the visit. although not for a couple of weeks

[guzzijim]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Guillotine-by ... 51a70e9937

[Framerpicture]

We use a Cassese 969 with Smart stop and it's a wonderful piece of kit for both bespoke and runs of frames.

As Tom rightly says the 999 is much faster but with the 969 when we are doing batches of frames we expect one operator to cut and pin 30-40 frames an hour depending on the moulding.
We expect 8-12 frames an hour cut and pinned on bespoke work

Dust and noise are definite issues.We use a Hippo dust box extractor which copes but you wouldn't want to be assembling etc in the same room.

You'll also need a good size compressor as they use lots of air.

[astraios]

You'll also need a good size compressor as they use lots of air.

Can you share your compressor details. Would it be sufficient to run:

Air intake: 150 lt/min. | 50 liters tank | 3 Singlephase motor HP 1 | Maximum pressure: 8 atm.

or

Air intake: 200 lt/min. | 100 liters tank | 4 Singlephase motor HP 1 | Maximum pressure: 8 atm.

for saw and underpinner?

[Framerpicture]

Cassese 969 requires 6 bars of air , and uses 1 litre per cycle- so the bigger the compressor the better

[Graysalchemy]

I have a 939 and a 3099 under pinner, as Will said you can easily do 30 - 40 frames an hour with this combo. However just cutting I can probably do 100 frames an hour if they are all the same size.

However you do need a big compressor, the bigger the better. I have a hydrovane 502 3 phase with 200l tank but even this is constantly on with the saw. but that is not a problem as they are designed to run 24/7.

Three phase are better than single so if you can get 3 phase in you premises I would go three phase.

The other important thing is the cut (assuming it is set up correctly and the blades are sharp) is infinitely better and consistent, however you will still suffer problems due to carp wood.

[astraios]

Cassese 969 requires 6 bars of air , and uses 1 litre per cycle- so the bigger the compressor the better

So if I understand right 100 l tank should be enough ... i don't want that compressor to run all the time (that is the only silent model that I can order ... anything above that would be very loud).

[Graysalchemy]

No I would say that would get drained pretty quick. My 200L tank gets drained within a couple of minutes of cutting they are very air hungry.

[misterdiy]

I cant add much to what has been said only I agree with the use ofa Cassesse 969. If it uses 1 litre/cycle then a small compressor would suffice. I have an Alfamacchine multichannel and that uses 4 litres/pin so a minimum of 16 litres/frame but more usually 32 litres/frame. My compressor is 50 loitre tank and is insufficient but does not run all the time even if putting 4pins/corner. is 1 litre/cycle correct? It seems low.

[Graysalchemy]

Well I run a 939 with a 2.2KW 3 phase hydrovane with a 200L tank and the tank only lasts a couple of minutes cutting before the compressor kicks in and then it will not catch up with itself. In the week or so when I bought the 939 I didn't have a large enough compressor and hitched it up to a twin pot bambi with 50L tank and that would just over heat within minutes.

Unless the new 969 are more air efficient then you need a big compressor and one which will run constantly.

[Framerpicture]

is 1 litre/cycle correct? It seems low.

I got this info from Cassese web site so i would assume is right. We have a 250 litre 3 phase compressor and its not at all overworked even if we're cutting and pinning at same time.

[Graysalchemy]

perhaps a 939 has a higher air usage or I have big leak somewhere

I still maintain you need a decent size compressor to run one though.